This episode is part of a series on Christian ethics for Christian business owners. Broadcast on November 3, 2023, Bill English and Carmen LaBerge @carmenlaberge talk on @myfaithradio about those things the Bible says Christians should value over other things. @connectfaithfr.
Carmen LaBerge
If you haven’t been to Bibleandbusiness.com lately, I’m going to invite you to visit Connecting Faith to Business with our friend Bill English. Good morning, Bill.
Speaker 2
Hey. Good morning, Carmen.
Carmen LaBerge
It’s November.
Speaker 2
It is. And we had snow here yesterday in Minnesota, as you well know. And I find it repugnant that we have snow in October, but we did.
Carmen LaBerge
But snow in November is totally reasonable. So yesterday that which was repugnant is.
Speaker 2
Today predictable and welcome. Maybe I can put it that way. So yesterday I wore a coat for the first time. I try to get to November 1 without wearing a coat, but yesterday I had to wear a coat.
Carmen LaBerge
How long does it take? Do you have pets? Cats and dogs and other things?
Speaker 2
One of each. One of each.
Carmen LaBerge
Do they get a winter coat? And if so, how long does that take? Once the weather turns? Like, does it just spring forth?
Speaker 2
The cat does, because our cat is about half out, half in. The dog is in almost all the time, and he’s not smart enough to grow a winter coat. But the cat does. Yeah, she actually gets quite thick. Takes how long? Month and a half, maybe.
Carmen LaBerge
But she starts in advance of winter. Like somehow her body knows that it’s coming. And so she’s already all fluffy.
Speaker 2
Yeah, because we’ll leave her out at night in October. When it gets in the that’s when her coat starts.
Carmen LaBerge
I have these little terriers, and it got cold. It’s now cold, and they don’t have any fur. They’re like, practically naked. And I’m going to have to get them coats, I think. There you go. That’s my current personal pet dilemma.
Speaker 2
I’m sure there are online stores where you can buy coats.
Carmen LaBerge
No question about it. No question about it. Okay, let’s talk about this. Well, first of all, you have this great ethics series. People can go to Bibleandbusiness.com and you can actually click on a link that says ethics. And that’s a great way on the blog, a great place to see what we’re going to talk about today and the other posts related to this. So this is a part of the Bible and business series on Christian ethics, specifically for Christian business owners, but applicable to all of us. Talk with us about the values that we should be walking out at work.
Speaker 2
I was asking myself the question because I was writing a section on core values in the project that I’m working on right now. And this project is basically another edition of my Christian theology of business ownership. I’m really upgrading that whole book. And so I wanted to find out, how does a Christian business owner look at core values in the owner’s business? Right. And then that led me to ask the question, what does the Bible say a Christian business owner should value? And in a sense, the Bible says we should value a whole wide range of things. And in another sense. The Bible never comes out and says you should value A or B or C. But what I noticed when I was reading through First Peter, because our church just got done doing a series on First Peter was that in one, peter. One, six and seven. Peter makes this kind of a side comment, kind of this passing comment that your faith, which is worth more than gold even though it’s refined by fire. That’s the bill. English paraphrase. I realized, oh, there’s a value there that we should value faith over wealth or faith over money, right?
Speaker 2
And then I thought, what does the rest of the Bible are there other comparative values where we’re told to value one thing more than another thing, and both things are good things when used properly, but we’re told to value one over the other. And when I went into Lagos and started doing my research, I was really stunned by how many verses have what I call that comparison, right? So, for instance, Psalm 119 72, god commands us that we should value God’s commands more than money. Proverbs 1616, we should value God’s wisdom more than money. In Proverbs 1229, we should value hard work over empty boasting. Matthew 1037, we should value our relationship with God over earthly relationships. And John 1243, we should value God’s praise over man’s praise. And the list just goes on and on. And I found this to be both encouraging and helpful and instructive, right? Because as a business owner, I want to make sure that whatever core values that get baked into my business reflect my heart, reflect who I am. And this table that I have out here at this article called what Should Christian Business Owners Value? Really helps to inform, kind of provide that ambient context for core values in a business.
Carmen LaBerge
Yeah, and I love that you’re giving it to us as this grid. How could I test some of these in my life? Bill? Like, just pick one. How could I test this? How could I test whether or not I’m actually valuing faith more than money, or that I’m valuing God’s commands more than money or God’s wisdom more than money? Is this a question of, like, I don’t like, how do I test that?
Speaker 2
You know, what came to mind? Carmen and that’s a great question, by the way, and I don’t know that I have a full answer for you, but what came to mind when you said that was when we value God’s praise over man’s praise, right. So when I’m dreaming about something that would go well, I have these internal hopes and dreams. We all do, and a lot of them are never articulated to anybody. Am I at the center of it, or is God at the center of it? Maybe that’s a way to test that one. Evaluating wisdom above all other desires. When we think about how our lives could become really easy, or the endpoint of our lives? What’s the ultimate success in our life? Right? And what are we really striving for? Well, if we’re told to value wisdom over all other desires, then is wisdom something that we’re highly dreaming about? I dream about becoming wise and not this sage that sits there with the long beard and the white toga and is off somewhere thinking thoughts that are higher than what Pooh thought when he went to his thoughtful spot, but genuinely valuing wisdom.
Carmen LaBerge
Okay, when Pooh went to his thoughtful spot definitely needs to be in the book. Totally. 100%. 100%.
Speaker 2
Who did not think high level thoughts.
Carmen LaBerge
No, I know, but I just think that most of us that’s what we’re doing. That’s what we’re doing. That’s pretty much what most of us are doing. And you are seeking to get us to think higher and deeper and broader and wider and more substantively, and I totally appreciate that. All right, we got to take a very brief break. When we come back, we’re going to talk with Bill English about the kinds of ethical decisions that we face at work, particularly those of you who you’re running a business, you own a business, you have some responsibility for others. What are the kinds of ethical decisions you are most likely to face? That’s up next here on Mornings with Carmen.
Speaker 3
Thanks so much for listening to Mornings with Carmen LABURGE. Hey, I’m Susie Larson. Hey, if you enjoy what you’re listening to here, would you consider subscribing to other great Faith Radio podcasts like mine? Search. Susie Larson live@myfaithradio.com. Or wherever you listen to podcasts, hit subscribe, and have a great day.
Carmen LaBerge
Continuing our conversation with our friend Bill English from Bibleandbusiness.com, where faith and business are connected. So connecting faith to business@bibleandbusiness.com, common types of ethical decisions christian business owners face. So if we’ve talked about the kinds of things that we value and how we walk that out at work, what are some of the decisions then, Bill, that we find ourselves needing to make?
Speaker 2
Well, the ethical decisions, remember, are decisions that we understand involve morality, but the Bible doesn’t speak clearly or directly to them. So, for example, should I buy this business or not buy this business? Should I enter this product line or not buy this product line? Should I hire this person or not? There’s some ethical decisions there the three types of decisions that I have landed on. One is called a moral temptation, where the owner can benefit or avoid loss, but in the process, some level of morality is going to be violated. Okay, so, for example, misclassifying some of your financial transactions in order that you lower your tax bill unnecessarily, right? In other words, you’re committing theft with the government because you’re not classifying certain financial transactions correctly. The second one is kind of on the opposite end. It’s called stand up for ethics. This is where the owner will suffer if the correct ethical decision is made. And standing up for ethics requires moral courage. And then the third part, or the third type is what I call an ethical trade off, where some will benefit while others suffer, and trade off decisions require moral competence.
Speaker 2
You have to understand the competence piece here. So if I’m right sizing my business and I have to lay off some people, those people are going to suffer while those who still have jobs benefit. I need to have some moral competence there in order to make that kind of an ethical decision. So moral temptations require moral willpower. Stand up for ethics require moral courage. Ethical trade offs require moral competence. And so what I did in each of these posts, as you know, because you’ve read through at least some of them, is I gave a description of the problem. I classified the type of ethical situation that it is, and then I filtered the details through the starting point for ethics, which for me are the two great commands and the Ten Commandments as a kind of a secondary layer. The two great commands being love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself, and then also went on to say, this is the correct ethical decision in this type of situation.
Carmen LaBerge
Okay, so here’s a stand up for ethics challenge. So you have a business owner today, and they walk into the office and they have a particular member of their staff who has covered their desk or their cube or their area. I don’t know, whatever their workspace is. With some very aggressively pro Palestinian right on the verge of anti Semitic posters, flags, graffiti and standing up for their right to express themselves, but then also not wanting our work environment to be a place that has become politicized and not wanting any Jewish person who might come to our business or be interested in doing business with us, feeling absolutely threatened by such a display.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I guess where my head goes first is that just like church is not a democracy, business is not a democracy. And so as an owner, what I would say is it’s got to be taken down, A and B, don’t ever do it again. Look, I’m very sympathetic to the non Hamas Palestinians needing a homeland, but I’m also very sympathetic to Israel needing to defend itself and to go after the terrorists who killed 1400 people. That’s a tricky area over there. But in the workplace, the kind of companies that I run, I try to keep our staff out of politics and out of religion, and that’s going to be a surprise to many people. That second part, because I want them to focus on the job that we have in front of us, and I want to be able to judge their performance on the job that I’ve hired them to do. I’m paying them to do a job, not to express political views or religious views. So I would just remind that person that this is not a democracy, this is not the public square. Business is not the public square. And if somebody’s going to speak on behalf of the business to the public, that is going to be me, the owner, not you, the employee.
Speaker 2
And if you need a different atmosphere to work in, then God bless you. Go find a different job. But that’s how I no, that’s really good.
Carmen LaBerge
Can I quickly put the shoe on the other foot?
Speaker 2
Sure.
Carmen LaBerge
So I’m an employee and the owner of my business or my manager or however my thing is, however my workspace is structured, they are asking maybe the words aren’t even asking. They have sent out a new email signature template that includes a flag of one side or the other in relationship to the conflict in the Middle East. And so on the flip side, how do I stand up for ethics as an employee when I’m being asked to do something at work that’s really not work related? And it could be a flag of any kind here. This could be a rainbow flag, this could be an Israeli flag, this could be a Hamas flag. You see the challenge? Yes. Thanks. How do I stand up for ethics as a person, as an employee?
Speaker 2
Well, first of all, you have to have a strong faith in the sovereignty of God and in the provision of God. Because what you’re going to do is go into your owner and say, look, you’re asking me to support something that I may or may not agree with, but I don’t think that this is appropriate for the work environment. I’m going to ask you to stop. An employee going into the owner saying, I’m going to ask you to stop. The owner nine times out of ten is going to say, get out of my office. I’m going to do what I want to do. And at that point, you have to decide if you can work there or if it’s time to move on. That’s how I would look at that.
Carmen LaBerge
See, I think that’s just very helpful. And it takes some moral courage not only to walk into the office, but it takes some moral competence to make that trade off if necessary. And so thank you for outlining this and the process by which we filter through what we need to filter through and how we bring the commands of God to bear on real life in real work.
Speaker 2
I know we got to wrap up here, but let me just interject one other thing. It is easier to be able to stand up for ethics as an employee when you have three or six months saved in the bank where you have a little bit of a financial cushion there. If you’re living paycheck to paycheck, that ability to quit in order to stand up for ethics or to exercise moral courage becomes very difficult because you don’t have a check coming. So my encouragement is that part of this is good financial management. So I’ll stop with that.
Carmen LaBerge
No, that’s so fantastic. Thank you so much. All right. That is our friend Bill English. You can find not only everything we talked about today, but tons of other great stuff@bibleandbusiness.com.